Comments on: When Do You Celebrate Shavuot?

By: Tammy

Tammy — Thu, 27 Jan 2011 18:41:01 +0000

Wow! I love the Word of YHVH:-) The TRUTHS to be found in it are inexhaustible. I thought I had this one understood, but it’s back to The Good Book for me. I know I’ll see it brother Kevin, because whenever I study something you shared in the original language another veil is removed from my eyes. I think I will look at it in the Paleo Hebrew too. Thanks for helping us along in our journey back to Hebraic roots!

By: Kevin

Kevin — Wed, 03 Nov 2010 23:26:36 +0000

Thanks for your thoughts, Jim. Please allow me to clarify. I was not saying that non-traditionalists are dogmatic and closed-minded as opposed to traditionalists (thereby implying that traditionalists are flexible and open-minded). What I was implying was that, in my experience, some who hold to their non-traditional viewpoints (i.e. Sadducean method) do so dogmatically and closed-mindedly -- not that they are unwilling to reconsider tradition, but unwilling to consider other non-traditional viewpoints that clash with theirs.

By: JimH

JimH — Wed, 03 Nov 2010 22:41:32 +0000

In the article, you said, “it is clear that the traditional point of view in this matter is in no way accepted carte blanche, at least in certain circles in and around the Messianic Jewish Movement, and that people are willing to entertain and embrace alternative points of view. The question is, will those who do not fall in line with tradition be willing to allow their own views to be challenged and questioned, or will they oppose tradition by reflecting their own dogmatism and closed-minded attitudes?”
Why do you refer to the non-traditionalists as “dogmatic” and “closed-minded”? Did it not ever occur to you that the traditionalists are equally, if not more so, dogmatic and closed-minded? I mean, are they any more willing or likely to listen to and reflect on the opposing position than the non-traditionalists? Remember, Jesus upbraided the Pharisees for following their tradition to the point pf making the word of God of non effect. In this case, the Sadducies happen to agree with scripture. Read Leviticus chapter 23, closely, for yourself.

By: Yosef

Yosef — Sun, 23 May 2010 05:17:46 +0000

The Day of Pesakh is a Sabbath (High Sabbath) so the next day is the start of the counting ending this year on May 19th. Two thousand years ago it just so happened to land on Sunday fullfilling both ways of counting.

By: KG

KG — Sat, 22 May 2010 00:35:37 +0000

Actually, we are -- Leviticus 25:4, as cited in my previous post. But even more intriguiging is Exodus 12:15. Check this out (this is why we need to read in the Hebrew):

"Seven days you [are to] eat unleavened things (matzot)--in the first day, leaven (s'or) you [are to] cause to cease (taSH'BiyTu) out of your houses... from the first day till the seventh day..." (YLT)

Hopefully you see the resemblance between "SHaBaT" and "taSH'BiyTu" -- that would be because they share the same root! * Could this be a weeklong "shabbat"? And instead of referring to, say, work, could the "stopping" or "ceasing" be referring to leaven? And if so (especially given the other evidences discussed, i.e. De. 16), how might that affect our understanding of "from the day after the shabbat"?

*cf. passages like Ex. 23:12, "...but on the seventh day, you shall cease (tiSH'BoT) from labor..." [NAS] or Lev.26:34, "...then the Land will rest (tiSH'BaT) and enjoy its sabbaths (SHaB'Toteiha)" [NAS]

By: Millie

Millie — Fri, 21 May 2010 23:30:51 +0000

Also, if Shabbat refers to a “stop” or ceasing, in Lev 23:9-16, the only times that we are told so do this are specific days. Nowhere are we told to do this for any other period of time.

By: KG

KG — Fri, 21 May 2010 23:29:26 +0000

Millie, if I understand you correctly, you’re basically questioning the idea of translating “shabbat” as “week” in Lev. 23… when the “obvious choice for the translation” ought to be “shabbat,” i.e. the seventh-day Shabbat. My point is that “shabbat” always means “shabbat,” but the word itself does not necessarily indicate a specific length of time, much less the seventh-day.

You should read through my other posts, but I’ll reiterate that “shabbat” does not necessarily have to refer to a day. Just two chapters after the one in question, “shabbat” is used to refer to the seventh year. It would be silly to impose upon Lev. 25:4, “but during the seventh year the land will have a (seventh-day) sabbath rest, a (seventh-day) sabbath to the LORD.” The point being, every time we see the word “shabbat,” it is incorrect to assume that it means a day (or a holy day) at all. Indeed, the passage we are discussing doesn’t clarify this in any way (hence the two-millennia controversy). Granted “shabbat” nearly always does refer to the seventh day, just not in every case. Does that make Scripture’s usage of “shabbat” inconsistent? That’s a hard line to hold to, given Leviticus 25:4.

By: Millie

Millie — Fri, 21 May 2010 23:23:07 +0000

We don’t start counting on a Sabbath. If the day we start is the day after a Sabbath, where is the “week” to be measured from? It must be a period of 7 days. Since there is nothing to tell us when it begins, the more obvious choice for the translation would be one of the Sabbaths.

Most people take one of the Sabbaths in Unleavened bread week. Why do they translate it as a particular day at the beginning of the counting? and more generally as a week at the end? That makes the instructions very clumsy.

Why translate the same word completely differently to justify their choice of start day? (especially when taking the weekly Sabbath makes this quite unnecessary.

It just seems rather contrived. If the word can mean the weekly Sabbath, why not be consistent?

By: KG

KG — Fri, 21 May 2010 14:14:27 +0000

Shalom Millie -- "Shabbat" doesn't necessarily refer to a Sabbath-day at the beginning of the counting. It could mean a "Sabbath-week" in all the instances in Lev. 23:9-16. "Shabbat," by definition, does not refer to a span of time, which is why we see it in Scripture explicitly referring to a "day" as well as a "year." Rather, by definition, "Shabbat" refers to a quality of how time is spent, that is, a time to stop.

By: Millie

Millie — Fri, 21 May 2010 11:02:52 +0000

Can someone please explain why it is generally accepted that “ShBT” refers to a Sabbath at the beginning of the counting, either the weekly Sabbath or a Feast Sabbath, but does not necessarily have to mean that for the final one?
If we take it at face value and accept it means Sabbath at both ends, we learn so much about our lovely Saviour Yeshua.

If it is the day after the weekly Sabbath, it foreshadowed and represents His resurrection. He, the true unleavened bread of heaven was represented by the wave offering – an unleavened barley loaf. (The NT calls him the firstfruit) The women found he had risen on the first day of the week, (i.e. the day after the weekly Sabbath). Like so much of His ministry and life, it is symbolized in this celebration.

The only time leavened bread is waved before the Lord is at Pentecost. In scripture, leaven always represents sin. this cannot represent Yeshua. Since the NT also calls us firstfruits, this represents us, sinful humans accepted by The Lord because of Yeshua’s perfect sacrifice.