Where Do You Stand on TORAH?

Posted on July 28, 2009 by KG in Surveys (Closed)
Updated on September 10, 2009

In our open survey to website visitors, 240 people responded to the highly controversial and clearly “loaded” question, “Who should keep Torah?” The raw data results are as follows: No one (3%), Jews exclusively (2%), Jews primarily, along with the Gentiles who are called to sojourn with them, like Caleb, Rahab and Ruth (17%), Jews and any Gentiles who want to, regardless of their relationship with the (Messianic) Jewish community (20%), and all Jews and Gentiles (58%).

Analysis of Results

It is self-evident that the respondents as a whole did not hold the typical Christian view that Torah is obsolete and has been “done away with.” Indeed, in keeping with such a perspective, only three percent responded that “no one” should keep Torah. We can therefore surmise that the vast majority of our audience are not traditional Chrisitans. Rather, they have a positive view of Torah-keeping, individual definitions or applications notwithstanding.

In contrast to the traditional Christian view, an overwhelming 78% of survey respondents see Torah-keeping as valid for Gentile believers in Yeshua. Almost 75% of these respondents (58% of all respondents) clearly see Torah as an imperative for all believers in Yeshua, period. The remaining 25% (20% of all respondents) view Torah-keeping as optional for Gentile believers, yet permissible for those who desire it. (It is also possible that these responses reflected an “optional” view of Torah-keeping for Jewish believers as well. If so, they would be included in this 25% figure.)

Only 19% of all respondents viewed Torah-keeping as either an exclusively or primarily Jewish responsibility. Almost 90% of these respondents (17% of all respondents) placed Torah-keeping for Gentiles as a practice reserved for those living within the context of the (Messianic) Jewish community, and therefore not encumbent upon Christians in general.

Comments and Observations

In hindsight, demographics should have been collected along with this survey. Without such data, it is difficult to make a determination if the views reflected in the survey are representative of any particular group of people. The only demographics we can assume is that all respondents are part of the incredibly diverse Messianic Internet community (we can define this community as Jews and Gentiles who share or collect information about Messianic Judaism or Jewish/Hebraic roots through the Internet). So, while the survey results cannot be used to determine the general attitude toward Torah within the Messianic Jewish movement, it certainly points to the pervasive view of those active on the Internet.

Ultimately, the survey confirmed what was suspected: the majority attitude of the Messianic Internet community toward Torah is apparently one of obligation (or, at least, invitation) for all–Jew or Gentile. This should, of course, be a startling statistic, given the historical Christian view (that not only is the Torah obsolete, but Christians are not “under” it, i.e. obligated to keep it), and the explicit teaching of Scripture (that the Torah was given to Israel to distinguish her from the nations, i.e. Ex. 19:5, De.26:18-19, cf. Ex. 33:16).

In defense of the Torah-for-everyone position, however, proponents are quick to point out that the Scriptures speak of “one Law/Torah” for both Israel (the Jewish people) and the Gentiles who sojourn with them. While this concept can certainly be applied in the context of a modern, Messianic Jewish community, it nevertheless begs the question: are all Gentile believers in Yeshua “sojourners/geriym” with Israel, according to Torah? Is the goal of the Good News to bring all the Gentiles of the world to the land of Israel to live as Jews (like Caleb, Rahab or Ruth), or is there simply a figurative and spiritual unity between Jewish and Gentile believers, as described in Paul’s metaphorical olive tree? (Ro.11) If there are indeed two types of Gentile believers–the exception that assimilates into Israel, and the majority that does not, though they separate from the world–do their differences affect their relationship and type of obligation to the Torah? With regard to the unity between Jew and Gentile in Messiah, do the Scriptures explicitly state or demonstrate that Jewish and Gentile believers are all now “Israel” (thereby obligating all believers to keep Torah), or do the Scriptures say that Israel’s believers (Messianic Jews) and the believers from the nations (Gentile believers in general) share not the Jewish believers’ national identity as Israel, but their covenantal promises as “one new man” in the “household of God”? (Ep.2)

The survey clearly revealed a majority opinion of Torah-keeping that less than 1/4 of respondents significantly challenge. The obvious question remains: can the survey’s majority view be upheld by Scripture, or do the Scriptures teach a different view of “who should keep Torah”?

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32 Responses to “Where Do You Stand on TORAH?”

tanya wolf

28. Jul, 2009

interesting.. my niece and I have been discussing Ruth’s “choice” to follow and yet she was never referred to as a Jew, always a moabite woman who chose Naomi’s God. a sojourner… that is what Amber and I have been referring to ourselves as.
Therese Gobran

29. Jul, 2009

The Torah is not all bout feasts & rituals but it has also commandments that we should all follow like do not kill. do not covet. Of course in the Grace testament Jesus raised the bar & upgraded those commandments to the deepest level like do not remain angry at your brother etc… As for rituals: They were symbols of the true thing. If I do them putting in mind the spiritual meaning behind that is Ok but if I do them out of a legalistic view, then it is a problem
marcia

29. Jul, 2009

I have this revelation that god always called His people “MY PEOPLE” .Therefore since the world was populated through Noah everybody is His by default because they all sprang from His people.It’s those who choose not to follow father God who become gentiles. So that makes even a Jew by birth who does not obey Father God a gentile. Thus all human beings must follow Torah.
Rusty

29. Jul, 2009

Torah is NOT a set of rules and regulations but rather a parental ‘teaching or instruction’ guide. Yes, there are 365 negative mitzvot and 268 positive mitzvot and yes only 27 can be done in Eretz. But the point here is ‘freedom without order is chaos’, so anyone thinking that Yeshua ‘freed anyone from the law (Torah)’ does not get it. In the book of Matthew 5:17-19, Mashiach tells us that everything remains the same…the rules…the teachings…the word of His Father. So, Torah was meant for everyone who wants to have a true relationship with G-d…it is not meant to cherry-pick through to apply at one’s whim.
Gregg

29. Jul, 2009

Yeshua was a torah observant Jewish rabbi that had many followers. His followers were called “Christians” because they immitated his lifestyle, so believers today should also and when he returns as Messiach the whole world will follow torah then. Jews should of course follow it.
yochanon

29. Jul, 2009

Yeshua is the Living Torah. He says ‘Come, follow Me’.
Torah means “law’ or ‘teaching’ or ‘arrow’; to follow Torah
means to ‘hit the mark’. One hits the mark when the inside
of the cup is cleaned, the heart is purified by Messiah and we
desire to love as He loves. Yeshua came to save us and to
interpret Torah, for He is The Truth, The Way and The Life.
As for me and my house, we will serve Adonai!
Colleen

29. Jul, 2009

Everyone who believes should dwell in torah. Yeshua said if you love Me obey my commandments, and He only does what the Father does. How can you divide the Two?
john dufresne

29. Jul, 2009

Yeshua also said “whoever obeys them and so teaches

others will be called great in the kingdom”. He is

refering to the Torah.
Crispin

29. Jul, 2009

My understanding, Kevin, is that “following Torah” is, ideally, a sincere, loving, & essential expression of a believer’s Covenant relationship and identity with HaShem and the family of Israel. If you are fasting, may it be easy. Shalom to you and yours.
Jo

29. Jul, 2009

To the Jew first. We have been grafted in. The laws still stand.
Alison

29. Jul, 2009

God calls—you follow. However, a strict and traditional halachah is by choice. Jesus seemed to emphasized matters of character, morality, and right living. After all His yoke is lighter to bear.
cadiyn

29. Jul, 2009

As I think we can see from just these few comments, I believe it depends on what you mean by “Torah.” Are we to obey the 10 commandments, yes by all means. The feasts, festivals, customs,rituals, and dietary laws , that is a different story in my view. I love all these Jewish “things” but when I choose to do something like lets say a Seder dinner for instance, it is out of love and respect, not because I need to, or am required to. But as followers of Yeshua, the laws are written in our hearts, and ALL things are to be done out of love for Him, and what He has done for us. Can I eat pork, yes, but not if I am in a situation where it would hurt a brother or sister in Christ. It is not about following Torah, but following what God has for us.
Wayne Hill

29. Jul, 2009

Torah was given to the “mixed multitude” which exited Mitzraim (Egypt.) HaShem didn’t care whether these people were Hebrews or not… as long as they followed Torah they would be, or become, His people.

Would God tell people to do something that is wrong or bad? Heaven forbid!

If the Torah is to be written on our hearts, how then can we not desire to follow it?

It’s all about excellence in the end. Those who desire to be “most pleasing” to HaShem will consequently try to follow His guidelines… even if some element of doubt may be present (the Acts of the Apostles thing)…

A paradox; the Orthodox Jewish establishment carried Torah (via Talmud) to the Nth degree… and the gentile believers in Meshiach rejected it completely. I’m certain the Truth is “in the middle” – by following Torah (not Talmud).
Larry

29. Jul, 2009

Y’Shua said that I have come to not change the law, but to fulfill it ! It’s good to follow the law as best we can, and to love, trust, serve, and praise The Lord with all our heart, every day on this short voyage here on Earth !
Wendy

29. Jul, 2009

This is a good discussion. My thoughts are with Marcia — ultimately all humanity. Those who do not accept this beautiful and gracious gift of the bridegroom for the bride are not the bride. The Torah was designed to be the perfect wedding garment for the bride, the perfect house for the bride, the perfect prophetic future of the bride, the perfect union with the bridegroom, the source of the fruit bearing of the covenant relationship. What spoiled the Torah was the spoiled and soiled bride. Yeshua came to perfect the bride, to clean away her ugly past of adulteries, and restore her to a perfect heart. The Torah was given to those already redeemed, not for the purpose of redemption; and thus it continues today through the greater endowment of the Spirit whose job it is to cause us to want to wear the garment and live the life with dignity and in the beauty originally intended. The work of redemption will not be fully complete until Messiah returns and completes His mission on earth and in heaven. The bride is not obligated nor adorned by the additions to or subtractions from Torah by humans; rather the Torah is perfect as the bridegroom gave it.
Mark and Carol

29. Jul, 2009

We have been Christians for almost 30 years. Up until about 3 years ago we were satisfied basing most of our faith on the New Testament with a little bit of the Old(Like the Sabbath) We did not realize how much we were missing. We like many NT Chrisitans thought we believed enough. Now we are so thankful that our blessed Lord has allowed us this time to learn the fullness of His word His Torah and to incorporate the fullness of the Gospel into our daily and Sabbath worship. We all have free will and can pick and choose from His word what we want to follow but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord. If it is written it is to be done. Shalom
Daniel Hennessy

29. Jul, 2009

I agree with David Stern’s translation (Complete Jewish Bible) of Matthew 24:12: “…and many people’s love will grow cold because of increased distance from Torah.” Torah was G-d’s way at the time of Moses, confirmed as such by Messiah, and will still be His way in the Messianic Era. Why would it not be His way now? For both Jew and non-Jewish believer?
Corwin Schol

30. Jul, 2009

What does “keeping Torah” mean; Keeping the law? The law was fulfilled. Keeping the rituals? The Law was fulfilled. Keeping custom? As long as it doesn’t make the Law of no effect.
Aaron

30. Jul, 2009

I guess in response to the one who says it’s O.K. to eat pork, I would have to say that there is only one standard of righteousness. We can not have an Holy Elohim telling us not to do something, and by us not doing it we become His treasure, His set apart people, then have a Messiah somehow come and change all that. How does that make any sense?

The context of not eating (something) if it offends a believer was never in the case of those things that were considered unclean. Remember, the things listed in Lev 11 are not considered or classified as “food”. They are things that are classified as unclean – not unclean food, just unclean.

I hate to tell you (or any other believer/Torah lifer) – get used to the fact that your Torah observant lifestyle is going to offend people; even those who consider themselves “believers” in the Christian church. It is not what you think. . . . it is what you do that shows your “love for Elohim with all of your heart, your soul, your every . . . “
Rhonda

30. Jul, 2009

All who testify that they follow the God of Israel and His Messiah *should* keep Torah. If one loves God with all his heart, mind, and strength, then he/she will *want* to keep Torah. I think of a God-fearer (Noachide) as being just one who believes God exists…who obeys in the least of things in order to appease Him. But if he/she *truly* desires to become part of Israel and a child of the Most High, then he/she will walk in the Way Adonai set forth.
Aaron

30. Jul, 2009

Also, I would like to add, that the “feasts, festivals, customs,rituals, and dietary laws” are not “jewish” things, they are YHVH things, remember “these are MY appointed times”? Where “Judah-isms” come in to play is in the rabbinic halacha and how they perceive it should (no, make that must) be lived out.
Joseph

30. Jul, 2009

Mishpocha, it’s simple – and our Brother John, from Scriptures explains it best…

1 Yochanon (John) 2:3-6 – The way we may be sure that we know him is to keep his commandments. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps his commands, the love of G_d is truly perfected in him. This is the way we may know that we are in union with him: whoever claims to abide in him ought to live (just) as he lived.

Shalom!
Peter

30. Jul, 2009

After Jesus Christ every day became a sabbath, every day you are a priest, every day you love Jesus and all people with all your heart, every day you a in a deep love realtionship with Jesus and not sinning become o so easy. You are so in love that doing anything that can hurt your bridegroom is out of the question and not part of you any more.
God bless
Ron Hill

30. Jul, 2009

This is a case of not understanding the Biblical Hebrew of Torah. When a goy or gentile chose to follow the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, according to the words Ha Shem gave Moshe, he or she would be consider a ger (sojourner) and as Moshe wrote, one Torah for the native of Israel and for the ger.

Ruth, a Moabite woman, married an Israelite thus she should would be considered a gar (feminine form of ger) under the same Torah as her Israelite husband.
Phil

30. Jul, 2009

I find it interesting that all the comments have left out Acts 15, which is very pertinent to this discussion. The question was, should a gentile keep the Mosaic law and the kasherut. The answer was, of course not. They were told not to keep torah, but 4 of the 7 laws of Noah. James, leader of the church at Jerusalem, before he tells them this, reiterates that salvation comes through Christ (not through keeping the 7 laws of Noah).

If based on what many of you all said, one would have thought that James would have told those Gentiles to keep Torah – which he did not.

Why would one want to keep the “law” when the book of Hebrews clearly points to us having a better covenant – and that was written to Jewish believers.

Finally, what laws are you keeping? The rabbis have added so much to what torah taught that what typically happens is that believers end up doing what the rabbis teach – rabbis are unbelievers, though good men. Example – do you keep the Passover Feast? If you do, do you offer a lamb in Jerusalem at the Temple? Of course not. You keep some rabbinic style seder that the Messianic rabbis have adjusted to make it palatable to believers. It is no different than taking Catholic/world teachings and adjusting it to your group’s teaching. All that is being done is “spiritualizing” the text.
George

30. Jul, 2009

There is significance in knowledge of the Torah to understand how God brought in the first Covenant through the Jewish People. They as a people were not successful in fulfilling the Law’s demands and failed misarably in fulfilling the Law to the extent they were unable to receive the Messiah when he walked amongs them. Many years have passed and the Law has never been fulfilled according to the Jewish Race. In my opinion the question should be does the Torah assist Believers and non-believers to the Truth about Salvation and then the response should be yes.
Janice

30. Jul, 2009

The survey isn’t constructed well. Torah includes animal sacrifices yet we know that Messiah fulfilled those requirements. To bandy about the name Torah while baiting people to answer a question (this was not a survey) is simply “stirring up a stink”. Not all of Torah applies in this time. You simply cannot ask people if we are supposed to follow “Torah” or not. I think a much more interesting survey which would be more fruitful is one that measures which parts of the Torah are considered binding today. We are not obedient to Torah. We are obedient to God, the spirit fulfilling the teachings; He will make all things come to pass either now or in the future. The fullness of understanding of God’s plan is that at some point in the future, the sacrifices will be instituted. So it is not a question if who keeps Torah … it is a question of which parts of the Torah apply today. THEN follows the question – who should be observing them?

I have another question I will post at another time concerning the millenial sacrifice.
Aaron

30. Jul, 2009

It’s amazing to me how much theology still creeps it’s ugly head into the Body of Messiah! Does anyone even read the Word anymore? Better question, does anyone read the Word in proper context?

First of all, the context of Hebrews is about the earthly Levitical priesthood. It was a shadow of the heavenly and was therefore insufficient, since it was the duty of men, fallen men. Just like animal sacrifice for sin, it was a substitute until Moshiach reigns as High Priest in the Heavenly. Why do you think Elohim told Moshe to build everything and to do everything exactly as he was shown?

Second, Acts 15 was never about should gentiles keep Torah or not. If so, it contradicts Exo. 12:49 & Num. 15:16. There is no such thing (biblically) as the “Noachide laws”. They are an invention of those who twist scripture to match their theology. Folks, when Yeshua was talking about His sheep, he didn’t mean it literally. Stop being sheep, stop following the “theology” crowd and start thinking for yourselves with the Ruach (spirit) and Yeshua’s example as your guide.
Bob

30. Jul, 2009

This is an interesting conversation.

Phil – you raise some good points; however, what did James mean when he stated that Moses is read in the synagogues every Sabbath. Could it mean that a “minimum” standard was established, but the with expectation of each person growing in their relationship and convictions – through the reading, understanding and following of Torah as God led them?

Janice – I also have a difficulty with the construction of the the survey. But I am not sure I “know” that Messiah fulfilled the requirements of animal sacrifices. In Acts 21:23-26, Paul agrees to pay for the animal sacrifices of four men who apparently were completing the vows of a Nazarite.

Mark (and many others) – your words are like springs of encouragement – thank you.

I look forward to future discussions.
George

31. Jul, 2009

Yeshua said specifically that he did NOT come to change the Torah or any of the teachings and that both Heaven and Earth will pass before one jot and tittle of the Torah is changed. I truely believe that these statements say it all. All who wish to follow his teachings must study the Torah.
Debra Tillman

03. Aug, 2009

I believe all should follow the torah. In fact, in many ways, the christians follow it. the problem is, they don’t want to specifically say they are following it. When we live as the Messiah lived, we are living and following Torah.
Joe

04. Aug, 2009

In many mitvot regarding high holidays, it was commanded that the foreigners sojourning in Israel in the houses of Isrealites abide by the same regulations. This is how I see it – if you are a gentile dwelling in a house of an Isaelite in Israel during the high holidays, you are under the law.
As far as Torah goes, as a gentile, it is your choice, but Caleb, Ruth, and others have siad “your people will be my people”. If you are joining G-d’s chosen people, then your should adhere to the Torah as one of G-d’s chosen. The law doesn’t demand it, but personal conviction should.